Is Hip-Hop dead?

DonDaddyD

::Gesturing ala Nas::
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Apr 14, 2005
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I'll tell you in another lifetime when we are both
Is Nas right?

It happened once before, when BIGGIE and Tupac died, Hip Hop was mostly left to the entertainer that is Sean P. Diddy/Puff Daddy Combs (or whatever he is calling himself these days). Not that I dislike the guy, but he was all about waving a Rolex watch infront of the Camera and pouring Women down TV screens. - To him that was "Gangsta". Lyrical content and the ability to acually rap well was mostly not as it would seem a priority to Puffy and his Bad Boy label.

I felt lost at that time, for me Hip Hop is a deeply emotional genre born out of frustration and anger, much like the blues. With the only truly successful artists (not performers like Nas) being able to convey their message in such a way a person a continent away can relate.
For a while it seemed like Rap music was back on track, talent was once again prevailing over production and marketing ability.

Then over elaborate glamour came back to the scene and faux rappers who can't form a verse but yet because they are somehow able to pack a video with untold honnies and wear large fake jewellery and even faker goblets, pimpsticks and drive an exclsive car that isn't their's, there are those that accept them and their image over what should be judged, lyrical content and talent.

Materealism is always going to be part of black culture as much as music is. But from my first hand perspective it was always regulated, simply because a person had the biggest diamond around their neck, didn't make them uber beautiful or good at anything, what it meant was that they had a big diamond around their neck and they were acknowledged for that and that alone. Many people outside the influence of black culture failed to understand the lines drawn in the sand, and that misunderstanding would appear to seep into black musuc culture because it seems that accepted is every guy who can portray a negative image, slap on spinners on his car and tell us with poor structure and flow something about nothing.

But this could merely be the evolution of Rap/Hip-hop music, like the deeply emotional Blues into the arty farty and overelaborate Jazz (not that I dislike Jazz but compared to its predecessor it is arty farty) or Ska into Reggae. And if so if this is what Hip-Hop should become, a bunch of actors pretending to bad gangsta men who somehow get women to stand next to them in video's though none of that or what they say is actually real, then should we just accept it and stop complaining. Should I learn to love Pop-Hop?

I'm left perplexed because Hip-Hop has evolved it has transcended its boudaries, but from the moment The Message was realeasd in the 80's, it was meant to do something, say something and change everything and I'm not sure it has. So is Hip-Hop dead and did it die for nothing?
 
No Nas is not right (hell I don't even think that's what he's saying), and if he really thought it was dead he wouldn't be performing any more. It's just the name of an album (which is pretty damned good btw). Hip Hop is NOT dead and I feel this is more of the same old "it was better back in my time" argument that seems to crop up in regards to EVERYTHING.

Mos Def, Talib Kwali, Ghosface Killah, Nas, GZA, RZA, Outkast, The Roots and many, MANY others are still around rapping about things important to them and not just the bling. Not to mention guys like Ludacris whose lyrics might not be Shakespearean but the guy's rapping ability can not be question. Luda can flow on ANYTHING, slow rhymes, fast rhymes, stuttered rhymes, alternating scales, the guy can do it all.

That and people need to realize that the beats that support the lyrics are almost equally important as the lyrics themselves. If the beats don't matter to you then go listen to some def poetry jam or some shit cause without a beat it's NOT hip hop. I'm not disagreeing that there are a lot of bling artists out there but shit there's ALWAYS been bling artists. Give me a friggen break, I see all these people hailing the good ol days of rap back in 91-96 and while that IS my favorite era lets not get it twisted.

Sure in that span we got the debuts or the best out of Warren G, Nas, 2Pac, Snoop Dogg, Notorious BIG, Ice Cube, Mobb Deep, Wu - Tang Clan, Jay Z, Dr. Dre, and many others but again, lets not get it twisted. Sure they weren't rapping about their diamonds and watches, they were rapping about shooting and robbing people, tweaking their low riders, getting drunk, smoking weed, and having their way with women. The perceived shift in quality simply isn't there. Not to mention that in the 80's while you had the politically fueled rhymes of Public Enemy you also had people spitting the most ELEMENTARY of rhymes basically changing the lyrics of nursery rhymes and such with production values that sounded like someone whipped up a beat on a 5 dollar Casio keyboard.
 
Hip hop is not dead, but rap is. Would be nice to see a resurgence but I don't see it at this moment. True, in the early 90s for every "You Must Learn" there was a "Bug-A-Boo" lol, but at least there was something out there that educated people through music. Now, it's just pop.
 
Mos Def Katrina Clap

God save these streets,
One dollar per every human being,
Feel that Katrina Clap,
See that Katrina Clap,

(Verse I)

Listen homie, It’s dollar day in New Orleans,
It’s where there water everywhere and people dead in the street ,
And Mr. President he ‘bout that cash,
He got a policy for handlin’ the niggas and trash,
And if you poor you black,
I laugh a laugh, they won’t give when you ask,
You betta off on crack, dead or in jail, or with a gun in Iraq ,
And it’s as simple as that,
No opinion my man it’s mathematical fact,
Listen, a million poor since 2004,
And they got illions and killions to waste on the War,
And make you question what the taxes is for,
Or the cost to reinforce the broke levee wall,
Tell the boss he shouldn’t be the boss anymore ,
Ya be ameen

(Chorus)

God save these streets,
One dollar per every human being,
Feel that Katrina Clap,
See that Katrina Clap,
God save these streets,
Quit bein’ cheap nigga freedom ain’t free,
Feel that Katrina Clap,
See that Katrina Clap,

Lord have mercy,
Lord God God save our souls,
A-God save our souls, A-God,
A-God save our souls,
Lord God God save our souls,
A-God save our soul soul soul,
Soul Survivor.

Talib Kweli I cry

eaturing Mary J. Blige)
[Talib Kweli]
Yeah, yeah
New Talib Kweli
Yeah, you know what it is
Come on, come on, yeah
Hey yo *repeats*

[Hook: Mary J. Blige]
I try, I try (that's all we can do)
I try, you know I try
I try, I try (yeah)
I try, you know I try

[Verse 1: Talib Kweli]
K. West!
Kweli! get searched on the plane, Arabic first name
Disturbed by the fame just like Kurt Cobain
Breath of life, kiss of death, my lips pursed the same
You flirt 'til she came
Nothin' hurt like the pain of torture
Daughters of the dust lookin' for a vein
Something to take in vain like the Lord's name
Put your hands together, got 'em all sayin'

[Hook: Mary J. Blige]
I try, I try
I try, you know I try
I try, I try
I try, you know I try

[Verse 2: Talib Kweli]
Yo, it's all ghetto in gear higher, the floor settle
More metal for beef that we don't let the law settle
I try to navigate the treacherous waters of
America's mothers that set up the slaughteres
But there's more of us
Although we speak in different languages
We all pretty familiar with what anger is
Young and dangerous Quinn 'n' Hobley shit,
Get up on some gangsta shit
Guns to bang ya wit'
And we put it on records to entertain ya wit'
Our growing pains get way deeper than Mike Seavers
Our uniforms is white sneakers 'd white T-shirts
On top of wife beaters
We like the life we fuss
The 'hood need us but rappers, just ain't the right leaders
I put a lot into it
This is my product and I gotta move it
Stop the industry but you can't stop the music

[Interlude: Mary J. Blige]
An upside down Kingdom where life is just not fair (upside down Kingdom)
Some many sufferin' cuz deep inside they're scared (so scared)
Fear pumped into their veins to keep them from their destiny
Where would they be if you and I don't care?

[Hook: Mary J. Blige]
I try, I try, you know I try
I try, I try, I try, you know I try

[Verse 3: Talib Kweli]
Yo, the things I'm seein' on the news is insane
A stock broker shoot his kid and throw himself in front of a train
A mother leave her baby home for two weeks all by himself
2 years old, eatin' ketchup and mustard, must have cryin for help
Tryin' to bring your struggle to life
The label want a song about a bubbly life
I have trouble tryin' to write some shit
To BANG in the club through the night
When people suffer tonight
Lord knows I try

[Hook: Mary J. Blige]
I try, I try, I try, you know I try
I try, I try, I try, you know I try

[Interlude: Talib Kweli]
Life is a beautiful struggle
People search through the rubble for a suitable hustle
Some people usin' the noodle, some people usin' the muscle
Some people put it all together, make it fit like a puzzle
Come on, say it now
Walton's life is a beautiful struggle
People search through the rubble for a suitable hustle
Some people usin' the noodle, some people usin' the muscle
Some people put it all together, yeah

[Outro: Mary J. Blige]
I try, I try, you know I try
I try, oh Lord I try
Everyday I

{*Mary J. Bliges harmonizes with the beat*}

Upside down Kingdom
Oh, they're so scared
Everyday on the news we can't look around without
something somewhere
I try, I try, you know I try
I try, I try, I try, you know I try
Lord knows, Lord knows we try
Yeah

Nas Dance

[Nas]
One more time, one more time
Uh, one more time, uh
One more time

I dream of the day I can go back to when I was born
Laying in your arms, wishing you was here today mom
Wish you'd appear
Just for a second from heaven my tears would be gone
I wouldn't be rapping this song
I'd be happy driving up to your 8 bed room mansion
Up late, laughing bout the hard time we faced
The galaxy is so enchantin beyond, Galileo's understanding
Past the milky way and all the planets
There's something out there greater
But only god knows, scientist claim we came from apes
But they lies though, that was part of our conversation
I spark one up and start blazin
Thinking of how amazing she was
A angel gave me love
I'm thankful, to ever know a women so real
I pray when I marry my wife I have one of your skillz
But mom you could never be replaced
I'd give my life up
Just to see you one more day
To have...

[Chorus]
One more dance with you mama
If I could only have
One more dance with you mama
Praying, wishin I could have
One more dance with you mama
If I could only have
One more dance with you mama

[Nas]

I wish you were here,
I miss you more each second I breathe
You resting in peace forever I accepted you free
A blessing to me, I see you dressed in all white
Smiling at me, happy knowing everything's all right
If only I can hear your voice and your laughter
Just one more time, my chest would be filled up with sunshine
April 7/02
That's when the gates of heaven opened up for you to stroll through
Beautiful Anne Jones
Job is done, raising ghetto kids in the hood
You was my strength to carry on and now I'm good
Job well done, you lived threw you sons and your grandchildren
Jesus finally got his bride, mommy dance with him
And you've been my guide through all the trouble I faced
They playing our song the lifebeat my hand on your waist
I grab your other hand and try not to step on your toes
Spin you around with my eyes closed
Dreaming I could have

[Chorus]

I love you forever mom
You will always live through me ... always
Uh, uh uh, yeah
 
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Hip hop is not dead. The only thing about so-called hip-pop is that artists now actually make some money. It was not any deeper in my time, the difference is that there were groups who made money with political rhymes.

There are lots of great well-written rhymes about important things, but the fact is that you can make ten times as much money rapping about bling. These new guys can write utter bullshit and the consumer (often young whites who could give a tinker's damn about society right now) will buy it, enriching them far beyond the deep thinkers of rap today. Even popular rappers who have good stuff, important stuff...the consumer will buy the most pop shit as the single. What message does that send??

The issue is that rap and hip hop is NOT dead, but the economics have dictated that the less heady stuff will be more profitable. That's what society wants right now, unfortunately. But the fault does not lie with rappers.
 
i think Vil makes a point. to ME, RAP sewed the seeds for the musical genre we now call "hip hop". and i think the DECLINE of rap AND hip hop came after Tupac and Biggie's death. Diddy stepped in and ushered in this whole new "era" that has just become inane and nauseating.

it used to be that rap and hip hop were EDGY, they were ground breaking music genres and their earliest traces reach as far back as the late 70's. what you see TODAY is NOT worthy to be in the same company of what we've seen over the last 20 years.

"rappers" like Ja Rule are most CERTAINLY "pop" and he PROOVED it with that ILL FATED "Greece" inspired video featuring Ashanti. I think Jay Z is more "pop" than true "hip hop" he's more about glamour and excess where as rappers of "yesteryear" didnt CARE about flashing and flossing. they were about making you pay attention, even infuriating you as long as they got their point across. it MEANT something.


rappers like 50 cent are PRODUCTS...they follow what is now like a formula. the same way Christina Aguilera and Britney Spears follow the "Madonna" blue print...doing what she did NATURALLY as she evolved (and at the time what she did was ground breaking and trendy). they do it as a formula because they think it will make them last and it hasnt. 50 cent is not going to last either. he has no flow (as compared to someone like Ludacris or even Da Brat..i LOVE her), he's all about flashing and flossing ..he 's a FAUX gangsta and thats what you see all over the place now.

rappers like Common, Da Brat, Ludacris, Nas, Wu Tang Clan...those are people worth paying attention to.
groups like "cash money" are a JOKE..and this whole sub trend of "crunk" from the South is irritating as hell...but its still part of the hip hop genre.
 
But you still have Common, the Roots, Naz, etc. that are still doing deep shit. I understand that some of the stuff right now is low-brow. But it sells, and I can't blame them.

However, there is still deeper stuff made. It simply gets no airplay and makes much less money. until the economics favor talent and substance over flash, then you will have this. But depth is out there for those that look. Even some of the more commercial acts (Eminem, for example, and definitely Kanye West) have some deep stuff.
 
Hip hop is not dead. The only thing about so-called hip-pop is that artists now actually make some money. It was not any deeper in my time, the difference is that there were groups who made money with political rhymes.

There are lots of great well-written rhymes about important things, but the fact is that you can make ten times as much money rapping about bling. These new guys can write utter bullshit and the consumer (often young whites who could give a tinker's damn about society right now) will buy it, enriching them far beyond the deep thinkers of rap today. Even popular rappers who have good stuff, important stuff...the consumer will buy the most pop shit as the single. What message does that send??

The issue is that rap and hip hop is NOT dead, but the economics have dictated that the less heady stuff will be more profitable. That's what society wants right now, unfortunately. But the fault does not lie with rappers.


This ENTIRE post justifies that Hip-Hop/Rap is dead and is mostly what Nas and a few others have been saying and why I've been seeing die-hard fans drop like flies and even more recently many over here moving onto to English rappers with something to say.

I don't know about when your time was but I'm fairly knowledgable about Hip-Hop from the 80's to now - even only having been born in '82 and I'll have to say that because of the lack of money, becuase it wasn't a get rich scheme but much more an expression of talent and a medium of communication Hip-Hop from the 80's to earlist 90's was much deeper than the credit card through the bum cheeks video that we get now. And maybe I'm noticing it more because of the impact Hip-Hop has had worldwide, so now with its scope and reach we get more of the shallow music because they make great videos equalling more money and due to the speed at which they can be 'put out' there is more of them. - You cannot argue that there is more shallow songs than there are deep and meaningful songs being played on radio, TV and on the Internet right now.

Rapping about bling is what is killing hip-hop, I wouldn't even make that statement if I haven't read it many times from many sources culminating with the reading of a Nas interview. Rapping about bling, mostly about what the rapper doesn't actually have is rapping about nothing and in my mind cheapens the whole Hip-Hop culture into something far less shallow.

And when it started out money and economics and what sold was never the defining part of what was going to be successful in the Hip-Hop world, it was about talent and something poignant to say.
 
My problem with Vil's post wasn't that she said there are 'hip-pop' rappers out there. I KNOW this to be true. But I countered her argument with rappers that I KNOW aren't pop. Whose lyrics MEAN something, who aren't rapping just about bling. And she turned around and said even THEY were pop. That's why I said what I said. If you listen to rap, and I know Rampage has my back as his last post pretty much said as much, then you KNOW Ghostface Killah is NOT pop. Talib Kweli is NOT pop. Mos Def is NOT pop. Hell even many of the 'pop' artists STILL makes songs with something to say. There's not a more mainstream rapper on this earth then Kanye West and yet he's still produced songs about blood diamonds, Katrina, and religion in the music industry. I think you guys are blowing something that's not as big a deal as you think it is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of proportion.

Like I said and Rampage backed up, lyrics weren't really any deeper back in 92 when Biggie and Pac were around then they are now. NONE of you have countered what I said earlier about the difference between now and then. Now it's bling, it used to be gang banging, shooting and robbing people, doing drugs, and having their way with women. IS that REALLY any better then bling? NO it most certainly isn't and it wasn't ANY less prevalent. And that's why this whole thing irritates the hell out of me. People choosing to IGNORE the problems of the past simply because they feel nostalgic about it.

ALSO let's not forget what the last track on Nas' album Hip-hop is Dead starts with.

He CLEARLY, and LOUDLY states, Hip Hop will NEVER die. Before going into his acapela outro.
 
You know I see Kanye West as the RARE exception of talent. More often than not talent can blur boundaries.

But still for all the artists you list Sino there are at least 2 for each one that has plagued the genre with talentless dribble.

When I say there are a lot of rappers who say much ado about nothing, I don't even mean the message has to be deep and powerful. A guy can rap about a comic or his favourite book of rhymes just as long as he does it well and is able to convey a story/message in such a way that it is not only descriptive - in the parts that need to be to create mental imagery - but also manages to get me to relate with the careful choice of his words and description.

A lot of guys (usually mainstream artist who plagye MTV BASE) can put words together that rhyme, they can flow and understand the structure and the technical side of rapping but they can't make me believe, they don't make the listener relate with what they are trying to say, its almost like there is no feeling to what they say and in that way they are killing hip-hop in my eyes. Thats what I mean by saying 'something about nothing'. Mostly guys like that are fake and products they create an image (usually negative) through careful marketing what they have to say isn't real (in any sense and is usually ghost written) and the way they act is detrimental to black/urban culture and what they do takes away from the real talent thereby further killing rap.

Maybe I feel it more because there is a million guys and girls trying to rap over here and honestly only three of them are really good enough to not only be acknowledged but also make it in mainstream English music, which is all but openly racist towards inner city black music.
 
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Alright lets take a look at the Billboard R&B/Hip Hop charts

2. Nas: Hip Hop is Dead (good)
3. Young Jeezy: The Inspiration (haven't heard this but I liked his last album)
8. Jay-Z: Kingdom Come (good)
9. Bow Wow: The Price of Fame (he's gotten better but I actually haven't heard much of this cd)
11. Eminem Presents: The Re-Up (haven't heard this but with Em involved...)
14. Snoop Dogg: Tha Blue Carpet Treatment (haven't heard this. He's fallen off but he was once great so you never know)
16. Birdman and Lil Wayne: Like Father Like Son (good)
17. Trick Daddy Back by Thug Demand (good)
18. The Game: Doctor's Advocate (good)
20. Ludacris: Release Therapy (good)
26. Styles P: Time is Money (good)
27. Jim Jones: Hustler's P.O.M.E (haven't heard this album but I like his past works)

Really doesn't look all that bad from here.
 
So it was a good 2 months, care to show what the singles charts show?

AND wasn't Hip Hop/Rap not to be governed and jugded on mainstream charts? The very fact that your using that in your argument and I can paraphrase Nas saying 'Hip Hop was all about the Music, the talent and what a person had to say, now its all about making money' kind of seems poignant and sweetly ironic to me.

And again your missing the point its not about what a person represents, just because them may appear 'real' and not pop doesn't mean to say what they do is any good and equally a person may know how to rap and structure their verse well it doesn't mean there is any heart in what they are saying.

I can safely say that on that list there is about two albums I have actually bought (I've heard more) and only about two more that I would buy.

Again we are going to have to disagree because though there are good rappers out there, they are overshadowed by the plethora of manufactured shit out there.
 
I brought sales charts into it because YOU GUYS say it's SO common that I figured I may as well just check out the charts and see just how common it is. So I did and what do you know, more then half of the albums in ranking order are actually pretty damned good.

And how am I missing point. I POSTED LYRICS FOR YOU. Christ, that's the second time this thread I've been told I'm missing the God damned point when I can see it clear as fucking day. Rampage can see that what I'm posting is DEALING with the point. Hell he's the only one that's acknowledge what I've said. NONE OF YOU have bothered to counter (Rampage agreed) what I brought up in my very first post about how in the past instead of bling it was gangbanging and such that sold records. WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?

You act as if NO ONE is out there speaking from their heart any more. Are you saying Mos Def is posing? Talib Kweli? Ghostface Killah? ANYONE that I've named?
 
you know, i've long felt that Hip Hop has become nothing more than a bunch of different people talking about the same thing, namely: Strippers, Sex, Drugs, and guns.

At the same time, I can still appreciate the music because I've accepted that RARELY will I get something of substance from it, and I genereally listen when I dont care to do any thinking.

Aside from Ludacris and Eminem, there isnt a rapper out there [ahem, in the mainstream of popular rappers that i have heard of] who doesnt sound like everybody else. Luda and Em have MASTERED the genre in my opinion, and are leaps and bounds above the rest. They make some of the most awesome rhymes consistantly... shit that just blows my mind, lol. its easy to tell that they are INTELLIGENT, versus some of these little boys running around trying to be big dogs and rapping about the most retarded shit. Of course, that doesnt mean I dont LIKE them or their music [I happen to love 50 Cent], but I know that its just not as DEEP. You guys are right, they've started following a formua and it gets old after a while. Dre used to be awesome too, but he doesn't really do much other than produce. Snoop Dogg was better in the nineties.
 
D
DonDaddyD
Good damn post, though next time mention Nas.....
you know, i've long felt that Hip Hop has become nothing more than a bunch of different people talking about the same thing, namely: Strippers, Sex, Drugs, and guns.

At the same time, I can still appreciate the music because I've accepted that RARELY will I get something of substance from it, and I genereally listen when I dont care to do any thinking.

Aside from Ludacris and Eminem, there isnt a rapper out there [ahem, in the mainstream of popular rappers that i have heard of] who doesnt sound like everybody else. Luda and Em have MASTERED the genre in my opinion, and are leaps and bounds above the rest. They make some of the most awesome rhymes consistantly... shit that just blows my mind, lol. its easy to tell that they are INTELLIGENT, versus some of these little boys running around trying to be big dogs and rapping about the most retarded shit. Of course, that doesnt mean I dont LIKE them or their music [I happen to love 50 Cent], but I know that its just not as DEEP. You guys are right, they've started following a formua and it gets old after a while. Dre used to be awesome too, but he doesn't really do much other than produce. Snoop Dogg was better in the nineties.

I agree with everything you said. SO much so that I think you said it better than I could have ever.

Accept the part about liking 50cent, and that you never mentioned Nas.... who is better than Em and Luda put together on the best night of their lives, Nas is just a 10 on everything then turned up to 11! lol.
 
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